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[00:00:00] All right, I am back in another episode. It's kind of weird, I know. Um, I tend to put out episodes around times when I am having a live workshop or, uh, opening doors to a program or something. Um, and while there's opportunity for me to create podcast episodes at other times, as a busy mom, I'm literally recording this on-- I'm sitting on my bed at the moment in sweatpants.

My hair's still wet from a shower. I've been working for a little while. It's a holiday weekend here. It's just me. I occasionally have a VA that can help with a few things, but I'm not some, um, crazy marketing guru back here. Uh, what happens for me, especially with my ADHD brain, is that when I'm doing something public-facing, I feel more motivated and excited, and I have more ideas to talk about.

So they kind of flow naturally, especially like, so a podcast episode is more natural during those times, especially when I put out, I [00:01:00] think this is my 60th episode. Um, and so I've said a lot of things, and so there's sometimes feels like there's not all that much more to say when I've created all these episodes.

However, I always have new things to talk about with clients and different things that are coming up, so there's so many things I could talk about, right? Uh, lately I've been going through Dr. Dan Siegel's, uh, book Aware and doing some of his workshops and whatnot. And it's, uh, he's definitely someone who's inspired a lot of my approach and work and philosophy as I've been reading and partaking of his work for like a decade now.

And a- as I'm going through his content, I'm simultaneously, you know, scrolling social media and whatnot, and seeing moms who post things like, you know, these are just random creators, right? Like, they just happen to be moms, and they're like, "Okay, how do I wean? How do we stop breastfeeding? Everyone keeps congratulating me on going so far, and I'm [00:02:00] basically here because I don't know how to stop."

Um, and of course, I've talked many times, there's those kinds of people as well as people who are saying, like, "Where are my people out there? Who else is breastfeeding this long?" Like, they're really excited, and they want to keep going. And I like to think that I create content for both of those moms. Um, but especially for the first kind of mom who's like, "I don't know how to stop."

What I've noticed, and I've said this many times, but I'm just gonna use kind of like different language for it. I'm kind of looking at things through the lens of, like, Dan Siegel's work right now. So I'll give you some definitions and explain things a little bit. But what I've noticed is those moms, and I think that this is really normal culturally, look at breastfeeding as if it is a linear system.

So Dan Siegel, um, pioneered this kind of field of research and, um, a pathway framework for mental health and wellbeing called interpersonal neurobiology. And [00:03:00] so he's taken from many, many, many different disciplines of science, mathematics, physics, right? Like engineering, psychiatry, neuroscience, all these different things and kind of like put them together.

Now, I am probably not going to explain this in the most articulate way, and if you happen to be a mathematician or an engineer or something and know more about this than I do, I do apologize if I am making this, um, too simple. But what he talks about is how-- What Dan Siegel talks about is how we are complex systems.

So this is complexity theory, I believe. Don't quote me. Complexity theory, I think, is how it's-- what it's called in mathematics. Um, and we're talking about different systems. So a linear system can be defined as s- a system that is equal to the sum of its parts, meaning one plus one equals two, right? So it is [00:04:00] very simple.

It's linear. One thing is connected to the next thing, is connected to the next thing, is connected to the next thing, and it goes on like that. It's very predictable, right? And I think that this is what a lot of people expect breastfeeding to be like. And now we can go even all the way back to newborn breastfeeding.

We expect it to be like, oh, we're gonna breastfeed every two hours or every four hours, and it's gonna be for this many minutes, and we're gonna be on this side, and then we're gonna be on that side. And it is presented that way for, like, many, many people. Many nurses, many doctors present it that way. Um, and it's, we can expect it to be that way, and a lot of times it's not just that we expect it to be that way, but we think that that is the way that it should be.

So when it's not that way, we have concerns. So that's linear, linear system. We can also apply that to weaning, right? Drop one feed at a time, right? Like, if we take away this one piece, everything will follow [00:05:00] this way. It's predictable. It should be this in th- Like, it should move in this manner. We do this one thing, and it will have this outcome always, forever.

The problem is that we are not linear systems. Breastfeeding doesn't work. Like, the, the breastfeeding relationship from the beginning through all the way to the end is not a linear system. It's a complex system. So a complex system is a system where it is more than the sum of its parts, right? Things are interacting in complex ways.

A complex system is defined as a system that has the, uh, capability, there's a possibility of chaos. The outcome isn't always predictable, right? So one plus one doesn't always equal two, and this, this happens. We do th- everything right. One plus one should equal two, and it's not equaling two. What's wrong?

Where did we [00:06:00] mess up, right? Especially when we're looking at things as if it should be a linear system. We get really stressed out. I did the thing. I followed the steps. I breastfed every two hours for 15 minutes on each side, and my baby still wasn't gaining weight, right? Uh, uh, the reality is, of course, and I can talk about this from a newborn perspective, okay, what if there's a tongue tie?

That oral function's not functioning, right? What if there's a digestive issue where the baby's actually not absorbing the nutrients? What if, um ... Right? Like, the, there could just be so many different things that could be at play. So the outcome is not always predictable. We can't predict that this is how this is going to end, and the same thing happens in weaning.

There are complex ... It's a complex system. Um, so you can do the steps, and it might not have the outcome that you wanted. For some people it will. Some people can follow [00:07:00] those steps, and it will happen that way, and others won't, and this is when things get frustrating and scary and concerning. And when you want a linear approach, when you're desperate, and you expect a linear approach and a linear outcome for a complex system, you are going to be frustrated and disappointed So I can go on so, like there's so much that I could talk about.

But I, I wanted to share that are you having linear system expectations when you are a complex system? You yourself are a complex system, your child is a complex system, and when we're looking at interpersonal neurobiology specifically, you and your child together are a complex system. When we're talking about it from breastfeeding, you're a breastfeeding dyad.

There's two of you involved, right? And when we're talking about weaning, there's still that breastfeeding relationship, but there's also [00:08:00] their own development that's happening, right, that's playing a role. There's this attachment, there's parenting. Like, it gets more and more complex as time goes on, right?

Because when you're a newborn, it's pretty... Like, it's, it's more simple. There's still the complex biology, physiology, yours, all those things happening, um, but their needs are much more like everything's a little bit cleaner in that sense, right? 'Cause like it's just the outcomes, um, like you have crying, low weight gain, sleep, right?

Like it's just, there's just less variability options. When they get older and they're a toddler, there becomes even more variabilities, um, in- involved, right? And I think we all know this. We can give like the running joke, right? Like you give your child a banana, and they're excited about it, and they enjoy it.

And then the next day you give your child a banana, and they throw it on the ground and told you that they hate bananas, and they will never eat bananas, and they never eat bananas, right? Like, they're not predictable. [00:09:00] You can plan the day down to the minute, you can meet their needs in all of the ways, and they, um, might still not go to bed that night, right?

Like, we know that things, um, we know this about parenting. And yet when it comes to weaning especially, we can often feel very broken, frustrated because our expectations are linear when we actually have a complex system. So what does this mean? Now, I do talk about things like air quotes, "optimizing things," right?

So that can be helpful, and I still firmly believe that it is helpful optimizing, um, different things in your life. But that still- Kind of, uh, takes that linear expectation role, right? If I change A, then B is going to change. If I, if I adjust this, then that's gonna be affected. And that is true to an extent.[00:10:00]

Really, um, the, the cool thing about complex systems-- So, like I said, there, there's always the possibility of chaos being created, right? Like, there's always that possibility of a very unpredictable outcome. But sometimes it can be somewhat predictable. Um, but complex systems, a de- a defining factor of complex systems, this is according to Dan Siegel, but I've looked at it in other things as well.

I was just doing some research ahead of this to make sure that I wasn't, um, spewing lies at you. But I know that this is a fundamental core, um, tenant, core, uh, trait of a complex system is that it is self-organizing. That means that when there is something, when there's a variable thrown in there, it's going to adjust.

The whole system adjusts, and it's always moving towards what Dan Siegel calls, like, healthy integration. Now, he's talking about this from more [00:11:00] of a emotional, philosophical, relational point of view, as well as a very, like, physical brain science, neurons integrating in your brain, um, like different elements connecting, right, in your brain.

So I don't wanna get too deep in the weeds here. But what, my hope is to encourage you and support you to see, number one, right, like are you taking a linear perspective when you're looking at a complex system? And two, to trust that when you make small adjustments, the whole system is going to self-organize towards healthy integration, towards health.

Okay? So it's-- Your-- This whole system, you, your child, and your breastfeeding relationship, are always making wise moves, even if they don't seem wise at the time. So sometimes there's gonna be that [00:12:00] chaotic outcome that comes out, and it doesn't mean that you aren't moving towards a healthy, well-integrated system where everything is able to smoo- smoothly operate.

Right? Does that make sense? I, I hope that this is kind of landing for you. So like I said, are you expecting that linear, um, linear outcome, linear process when you're changing a complex system? And two, always trust that every change that you make, so when your child has a reaction that you did not anticipate, that you didn't think was gonna happen, that is just part of being in a complex system.

That's part of being in a relationship with your child. That's part of being human. It's normal. It's okay. You didn't do anything wrong. 'Cause if you're thinking that linear thinking, then you're thinking, "Crap, I must have added two instead of one, so we got [00:13:00] three instead of the two that I was looking for," right?

"I was hoping to add one plus one to get two, but since we didn't get two, it must have been my fault. I must have put in three by accident," right? And that's, that's not the case. It's n- it's not that simple, right? And having that, um, kind of chaotic outcome is okay. It means you're human. And now to move towards health and to move towards integration, to move towards, um...

And that integration can, like you, you're making those changes when there's weaning happening. Sometimes the weaning is the outcome of the system moving towards health. Sometimes, right? I mean, ideally, that's always gonna be the case. Like, your child is always developing and growing and maturing, and they have less and less need for breast milk as they get older and older and older, right?

And you have your own life and your own things. There's just a natural separation that's going to happen. [00:14:00] And so that complex system moving towards healthy integration is naturally going to result in weaning. It's n- it's a natural part of being in that complex system. And also, if you are facilitating more intentional weaning in this process, you are, um, you know, you're, you're changing things within that system, and some of that is moving towards health.

But there's going to be perhaps unpredictable variables or unpredictable outcomes at the time, some of the time, right? And that's okay. It's all okay. A big, big thing here is, is that trusting the process, because some of this is intellectual choices, is actual, like conscious choices you are making. That is part of moving towards that self and that, you know, um The self-organizing, moving towards a healthy integration.[00:15:00]

Uh, and also a lot of it, perhaps the majority of it, is unconscious. It's you and your child in a dance together feeling the movement, feeling the tempo changes, feeling the shifts, and adjusting, right? You don't have to consciously think about so many actions that your body takes. You don't think about breathing, right?

Like, there's so many things happening in your autonomic nervous system. That's autonomic, automatic. And all of that is part of this complex system. And so these adjust- you can trust that the adjustments are gonna happen, that you're going to be self-organizing towards integration and health. And I'll quickly define integration here, uh, as far as, like, Dan Siegel's int- uh, definition of integration, 'cause that word might feel, like, overwhelming or really, like, odd and kind of Doesn't really feel concrete.

And integration, um, as [00:16:00] defined by Dr. Dan Siegel, is the, um, meaningful interaction, meaningful connection between two differentiated parts. And I think that this is where a lot of parents struggle when it comes to breastfeeding and parenting in general, right? When you are-- and when you are-- have your baby inside of you, you are, like, so integrated, right?

Like there's-- you're nearly what we might call an enmeshed, right? Like you're, you're one and the same, for lack of a better word, right? And so as time goes on after birth, et cetera, there's a healthy separation that is happening. And each part of this system, so you and your child, are meaningfully different.

You each have different needs, different desires, et cetera, right? And if you're super, super different and separated, then you're not [00:17:00] integrated, right? So we have, like, one end of the spectrum where you and your child are essentially one and the same. And then we have the other end of the spectrum where you could be so, so far apart and so, so different, right, differentiated, that you're not interacting at all.

You could live in separate houses, right? Like, you could be-- you could just never talk to them. They're so, so far away. But when there's integration that's hap-happening, it's two differentiated parts able to be fully who they are, have the needs they have, et cetera, that get to come together and know each other in meaningful ways, right?

They don't have to pretend to be something they're not. It can be, "This is my authentic self, and here's what I have to offer. Here's what I need." And then you get to come together and know each other in a meaningful way that, it-- that feels deeply connected. I don't know about you, but I can tell when a person is, and I'm sure you can too, I'm not saying I have some kind of superpower, but when, like, a good friend or my husband or my sister, [00:18:00] they're just not being themselves, right?

Like, they're not being their authentic self. And it's like, "Hey, I don't want you to tell me what I want to hear. I don't want you to have to pretend to be something that you're not." And of course, sometimes I miss it. Sometimes they are acting in a certain way, um, and I, I don't notice, right? And that's almost scarier to me because I want to know them, and I want them to be fully who they are.

And so when we're talking about complex systems moving towards healthy integration, right, self-organizing towards that integration, it's a process. It's a, it's an ongoing unfolding and maturation of that system, right? So that you are becoming your own self, growing, maturing, and so is your child. And moving towards that healthy integration means moving towards authentic relationship, where you get to know [00:19:00] them for who they are, and they feel safe expressing that, and you get to be known for who you are.

You don't have to be, um, exhausted, forcing yourself to meet every single need they could ever have because you have to show up as the perfect mom. Instead, you get to be you. And that is a healthy, beautiful thing. Um, and it can sound kind of scary, and we can go over this. I have a live workshop coming up, um, in a couple of days as of this recording, but you can always send me a DM.

I've got different things coming on. You can go to ownyourparentingstory.com/workshop. Um, if it's not a live workshop coming up, I'll have some kind of recorded workshop. Usually my-- Like, I have an audio workshop up there right now. But you can get in contact with me. We can talk more because it might feel a little like, "What's happening?"

Um, but How can I show up as myself, right? But it, that's okay. It's okay to be your true and authentic self, and that's healthy, and it helps your child to be their true and authentic self, too. Okay, I could ramble on about this [00:20:00] topic for so much more, but I would rather you come to the workshop and hang out with me and we can talk more about it there.

What I want to leave you with, again, is that question: Are you approaching breastfeeding, weaning, parenting in general as if it's a linear system, as if it's one plus one equals two? Or are you allowing space and understanding for the fact that it is a complex system and it's self-organizing? Your child is self-organizing.

You are self-organizing. So is your relationship. And it's moving towards that healthy integration, that healthy place of everyone being able to show up exactly as who they are, fully able to self-regulate, right? Like, if it's self-organizing, able to self-regulate eventually. This takes time, um, emotionally, et cetera, but you get to be known for who you are in that relationship.

So weaning is part of that. Weaning is that healthy separation that comes and can also still maintain that deep connection. And when you [00:21:00] are making intentional changes or intentional changes just have to be made, right? Whether that's, like, you're moving or, um, you need to wean for whatever reason, or your milk dries up and you're pregnant, um, and you're still breastfeeding, right?

Those things happen, and so when variables change inside of that complex system, expect that there can be those unpredictable outcomes and that that's okay. That's what makes you human. And you can still continue to self-organize, and that will happen intuitively to a certain extent, somewhat cognitively, right?

Um, and you can trust that it is always moving towards that healthy place. Your relationship is always moving towards a healthy place, right? When you allow it to do that, when you are doing that work, um, and allowing yourself to grow and mature and allowing your child to grow and mature, you will get there.

So I hope that that's a little bit of a message of hope, and I hope that it's a bit of a reframe for you and just that question of, "Hmm, am I always expecting one plus one to equal two, or am I allowing space and [00:22:00] being okay with that e- that possibility of chaos that might come?" Right? 'Cause also when you think about it too, that possibility of chaos is allowing for them to be who they are.

It's allowing for that authenticity to come, because whether you like it or not, you are a complex system and so is your child. And so allowing them to be authentic, authentically themselves, allowing for that unpredictable outcome is going to keep you in a flexible place of integration. I know I, I, again, I get kind of, like, technical, but it's gonna allow you to stay in that flexible, healthy place of connection with your child, right?

Which is, again, that healthy place of integration. Okay, that's enough from me for today. I am so excited to see you all on Thursday. Um, and if you're listening to this in the future, please reach out. You can send me a text message. My phone number is in the show notes. Yes, it's always 100% truly me. If you text me one [00:23:00] of the code words, then you might get an automatic response from me, but it still comes to me, and if you reply to that message, it will be me who's replying to you.

You can send me an email. Um, I'm not on Instagram as much these days, but you can send me a DM there. And yeah, I hope to see you at a live workshop this week or in the future. All right. Catch you later