*Transcript Auto Generated* 

Natasha Podcast Interview

Jenna: [00:00:00] Natasha, it is so great to, first of all, see your face again. I am very excited about that. Also great to talk with you today. For the listeners, could you just briefly introduce yourself? You know, name, Kids ages, that kind of thing. 

Natasha: Sure. So it's, first of all, it's really great to see you again, too. I always enjoyed talking to you and being part of your group.

Natasha: So it's it was so happy to see your name pop up in my emails. The other day I was like, what's going on? So I'm Tasha. Or Natasha. I have two kids. My son is just turned four and my daughter just turned one. So I've been breastfeeding since September of 2020 straight until now. Yes.

Natasha: Still going with both of them. 

Jenna: Yeah. Yeah. Tandem feeding. Yes. Which sometimes I know people, like, they just have a hard time even conceptualizing what that is like. 

Natasha (2): [00:01:00] Yeah. 

Jenna: Which honestly we could talk about. 

Jenna: So for the listeners who are tuning in right now, you did go through my course on your breastfeeding story and you must have come in, oh my goodness, so if Your youngest is a year now you, I think you enrolled in November of 2023.

Jenna: So that was like almost a year ago now. Yeah. She would've been just so teeny tiny. So 

Natasha: tiny. Just a little wee babe. 

Jenna: Wow. So I guess I could start out by asking did you anticipate breastfeeding your oldest for as long as you have? Was that on your radar when you first had him? 

Natasha: It was, you know, I remember learning about breastfeeding before I started, before I was, while I was pregnant, I have a cousin who's a lactation consultant.

Natasha: And as her baby shower gift, she offered me a free breastfeeding preparation course, which I did with a few other moms was awesome. And I learned a lot. about, you know, the World Health recommends at [00:02:00] least two years and beyond, or up to two years and beyond. Which I thought was at the time I was like, Oh, that's great.

Natasha: Cause I, I guess I hadn't realized that they would be recommending up to two years. It's, Oh, that's more than I thought. And then I remember learning that the world average was something around four and I was like, Oh my gosh, that would be like a really long time. And then up to seven. And I was like, Oh, please don't give me a seven, please.

Natasha: But I did think I would go as long as my son wanted to, like, as long as. He would, he would try to continue. I couldn't imagine at the time myself wanting to stop before. So no, I did not anticipate, I mean, when he was, once he was born and how much he loved the milk, I was like, Oh, I bet you I've got, I've got a seven, I think I might have a seven because he was obsessed and so in love with having milk for every occasion at all times, like the on demand was like.

Natasha (2): Yeah. 

Natasha: So I kind of had some [00:03:00] suspicion, but part of me was like, okay, maybe a two or a three and 

Jenna: yeah, 

Natasha: no, 

Jenna: I think that a lot of people will relate to that. I know I did. You're like, oh, that, that's great. That it's like that. And also like, it's not gonna be like that for me. Or you think that self leaning is gonna happen and you imagine that like, oh, at two they're just gonna be done, right.

Jenna: Mm-Hmm. Like, they're gonna , but it's not always the case. Mm-Hmm. So then you kind of fast forward a little bit, obviously, from that initial preparation and being excited about things, and then you're like, okay, we're gonna keep going until he's ready to stop. 

Natasha (2): And then 

Jenna: you added another baby into the mix.

Jenna: So what was that like? Can you tell me more about that? 

Natasha: Yeah. So the process of adding the baby was long and hard for us. We, we started trying when my son was about, I don't know, a year and a half or so. And we got pregnant and had a miscarriage. And my son continued feeding throughout that pregnancy.

Natasha: It was about 10 [00:04:00] weeks in total during which I thought, Oh, hey, like, you know, he was starting to make comments about the milk right away. He was like, milk is acky, milk is acky. And I was like, Oh no, the milk is changing. I thought maybe he would start to wean, but he didn't, and then we lost the pregnancy, and I was just so relieved that he hadn't weaned, because I thought, okay, like, we can keep going, and, you know, thank God we didn't, at least didn't lose that and then we were pregnant again, and we went through another really painful loss at 15 weeks again, he fed all the way through and then, again, I was relieved that we were pregnant again.

Natasha: Still feeding when he was, you know, I can't even remember coming home from the hospital after the loss. And he had been with my mom and he came over and he just wanted to snuggle up and feed. And there was just nothing in the world I wanted more than to just be like holding a baby and feeding. 

Natasha (2): Yeah.

Natasha: So it was very soothing. And like, you know, Kind of healing to be just holding my big, beautiful boy. And he was so sweet. I remember him just [00:05:00] reaching up and just like rubbing my hair. You could tell that I was sad and he was just like trying to like soothe me. It was like such a sweet, precious memory. And then one month later we became pregnant again.

Natasha: So it was very quick turnaround from like a couple of back to back losses. And when we became pregnant, this was with My daughter our baby that was January of 23. So at that point, It started to become painful. The process started to be ouchy. I would tell him, it's ouchy, it's ouchy. So we would sort of limit the duration of our feeds.

Natasha: He used to just like latch on and just like go. By this point he was, I guess like two and a bit. The latch was like a little bit different. I don't know if it was sensitivity during the feed or what, but I was [00:06:00] overwhelmed. 

Jenna: Yeah. 

Natasha: And I would sort of like, you know, try not to clench. I would do a lot of things that you learn about for, for delivery, like Trying to like progressive muscle relaxation and trying to like not be tense and trying to like breathe through.

Natasha: But it was really like I was like using labor coping mechanism to deal with. Yeah. I was like, oh, yeah. And that was like 

Jenna: nipple sensitivity at that point is what I'm assuming. Right. It was like, that was the pain. It wasn't necessarily like agitation because sometimes you can have, there's two different things, right?

Jenna: There's aversion, which can sometimes. Be associated with pain too and like, but that's more like an irritation. It's like I feel irritated and frustrated. Mm-Hmm. . And then there's like straight up sensitivity where it's like, there are razor blades on my nipples right now. 

Natasha: Yes. It was more that at that point.

Natasha: Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh my gosh. And so I was just very honest with him. We, we had a good communication by that point. He's very verbal little guy. So I would just be like, Ooh, it's empty for mommy. So we're going to count down and we would do a [00:07:00] 10, 90. And then instead of stop, we would say latch off. 

Natasha (2): Oh my gosh.

Natasha (2): I love that. 

Natasha: Really into that latch off. So he would like, and sometimes he would try and beat the clock, which would make me so happy. Cause he'd try and he'd latch off at three or something. So yeah, so that was the coping and then when we got our little baby we had a lovely home birth, a lovely water birth and soon as she was born, we were just like laying and having skin to skin and after about an hour, my son came up from the basement.

Natasha: Where he'd been playing with my mom and he met her, they had told us it's a good idea to put her on a blanket or something, you know, no, you're not holding her so he can just meet just her not kind of be confronted with the whole like jealousy thing at the same time. So so they were like, you know, checking each other out.

Natasha: He was looking at her toes and then. He said, Mommy, should you have some? She started to cry and he said I think she needs some milk, Mommy. I think you should give her some milk. And I was like, that's such a good idea. And so I pulled her in and then I [00:08:00] said, do you want to have some milk too? And then he jumped in.

Natasha: And so we just, they were like both sitting at the same time, holding hands. Like, looking, peeking at each other, and I was like, this is the most beautiful moment of my entire life. Like, this is so sweet. 

Jenna: Well, thank you for sharing that, first of all, because I know that there are people who are listening who are like, what does it even look like?

Jenna: How am I going to feel? Especially when what you're describing about, like, you're, like, the sensitivity that you were having during pregnancy, it can feel like, 

Natasha (2): why 

Jenna: am I still doing this? Like, Yeah. At a certain point, like why are we still pushing through? So that's really beautiful. 

Natasha: Yes. Oh, and one more thought, just kind of skipping back a tiny bit.

Natasha: During labor, he fed a bunch, like when we were towards the end, I mean my labor has always been like slow cooker, so like very slow starts, and then like gradual, gradual, and so we were on like the third morning, and I was like, this has to happen today because I'm not getting good sleep anymore, and I need to get this going.

Natasha: And I just snuggled him and he just [00:09:00] fed, fed, fed and the contraction boom, boom, boom, boom. So there's also that. Yeah, that's 

Jenna: a great benefit. 

Natasha: Yeah. I credit him for like bringing on her labor. 

Jenna: Yeah. And anyone who's listening, you're, and I've covered this in other podcast episodes too, but your body will not put you into labor until it is ready.

Jenna: And you were right at the end. But what that does is it increases the oxytocin flow. Oxytocin is what they will give you in the hospital for, to start labor. Sometimes it's called Pitocin. But you have to have The right amount of receptors on your uterus in order for that to happen. So he wouldn't have brought on labor and he didn't bring on labor all the times he was breastfeeding before.

Jenna: So just for anyone who needs that, like clarity, you're not going to cause preterm labor or a miscarriage from breastfeeding. That's not going to happen. And also it's a great benefit that when your body is right there and ready to go, you can potentially speed things up by breastfeeding if you would like to.

Natasha: Absolutely. That's, [00:10:00] that's a good point to add in because yeah, I did get a little nervous towards the end. Like, is this, isn't this like maybe going to get risky or isn't this going to get weird? I couldn't believe he was still feeding really. Yeah. I kept checking in with my midwives like, should I? And they were like, you're fine.

Natasha: Everything's good. Yeah, 

Jenna: so then you're now tandem feeding, you're now tandem feeding a toddler and a newborn. And I know that you were, I just pulled up your your intake form just to see you and your son was three and your daughter was one month old. By one month old and your son being three, you were experiencing some challenges.

Natasha (2): Do you 

Jenna: recall what those challenges were? I know you said that you were kind of like in a haze and it was just all crazy. 

Natasha: Total haze. I think I found you by fluke on some kind of Instagram thing. And I remember potentially what it was. There was something you were talking about redefining what a boundary is and it's not.

Natasha: Anyway, whatever it was that you were saying, it was about boundaries. It [00:11:00] pulled me in. I was like, well, that's interesting. This is before I think I was even, like, before I'd had My daughter, but when I when I found you and started following you, then I was like, oh my gosh, like, I found this person for a reason, because it was like, I could see your content.

Natasha: I was like, this is somebody I need to learn from, like, I need to connect with more. And then I saw your, your course that you were doing was about Tandem and toddler feeding. I was like, yeah, yeah, 

Jenna: I had a, yeah, I had a, like the free workshop and then yeah. And then you came in through, yeah, I would have been, that would have been.

Jenna: Maybe that was Toddler Mastery, I don't know. But it was one of those, one of those ones that I had, yeah, presented and then I had, I had the course too. And it was 

Natasha: choosing your story or choosing your, your, your own adventure. And I was like, that's what I need. I don't need somebody to like, tell me how to wean because I don't know if I want to.

Natasha: I don't need somebody to tell me not to wean because I maybe do. And I don't need somebody to like, be directing me. I need to figure this out and I need like a soft landing, a safe place to do it. And this [00:12:00] was like, I couldn't even believe. I was like, the algorithm has helped me once again. It was like magic that this thing found.

Natasha: So I think what we were struggling with at the time that things shifted after the birth, there was still an ouchiness, but it was also an aversion that was starting and a shock. It shocked me. I wasn't prepared to feel that way. I was upset to feel that way. He suddenly looked like this enormous adult compared to this tiny newborn.

Natasha: And It was jarring. It was like, Oh gosh, he's too big. I literally 

Jenna: had emotions. I almost had tears come in my eyes when you said that, just even the look on your face, which I know people are listening, but I, I understand that so much. Yeah, exactly. They look like this like big grownup and you're, and it's jarring and you didn't expect that.

Jenna: And just like you shared, first of all, right after birth, there was that sweet moment, but also, Before you even got pregnant with My daughter, you [00:13:00] had these beautiful connecting moments. Like, breastfeeding was so meaningful for you. It was so important and valuable to you. So, of course, it was a shock when you started to experience aversion during it.

Natasha: Like, yeah. Yes, it was very, very, very upsetting. And I was trying to just push past it for him and trying to just be like, it'll go, it'll go away. And you know, it's just temporary. It's just this, it's just, you know, newborn hormones or whatever it is, postpartum. I don't know. And it just kept going and kept pushing through it because I was like, well, I'm not going to rip it from him right now.

Natasha: When I, you know, And I have given him this impression that it's until he's done. I'm not going to rip it from him right as I have a new sibling who he's going to see as the reason I'm doing it and destroy their bond because their bond was gorgeous. Like he loved her. There was no jealousy. He was like just full of affection and love for her.

Natasha: He would want to feed every time she was feeding so he could be close [00:14:00] with her. They were like, Cuddling in the feeds, like their bond was rocking. And that was one of my goals. Like I wanted to bring them together through this. And it was like, I just got to push through. I just got to white knuckle this.

Natasha: I got to just manage this. Cause it's not something I planned for and I don't have any solutions for it, but it's not, I can't, I can't just cut them out right now. So I got to at least. Get through a period more, somehow. 

Jenna: Yeah, and I mean, just, it makes sense. It makes sense, and it's not something that people talk about.

Jenna: And, you, like, also compassionately, you had gone through multiple miscarriages. You had gone through pregnancy, and then delivery. Emotionally, Physically, you were depleted, like mega depleted. So it makes sense that that came up, but then unfortunately to be white knuckling it through that is just further depleting you.

Jenna: And really [00:15:00] those that, you know, I don't think that aversion is, some people feel like as soon as you experience aversion, that's your body telling you that you need to wean. I don't think that that's the case. It might, weaning might still be the outcome for you. That might be what you choose, but it's, it is telling you something.

Jenna: It is a signal. It's flashing red lights on that dashboard that something is up. And yeah, you need some support. So yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that you reached out during that time and that the course was available for you. 

Natasha: I am like beyond it. It's. It's, sometimes it just feels like, like, the universe or fate or something, like, just, it doesn't even make sense that I found you at exactly the time that I needed you.

Natasha: It was like, I was like, this is, I have to do this, like, I have to just do this. 

Jenna: I remember, I think I mentioned just before that I got an email from you. Like, you had been in for, like, hours. I feel like it [00:16:00] was like, you had not been in the course. And you're like, I'm already through module one, and I just, both the kids napped, and I went through the whole workbook, and I, my mind is blown, and this is exactly what I needed, and that was like, Really great for me to hear because it's vulnerable to be creating content and putting things out and like, you know, I really want to support people.

Jenna: So it was supportive for me, but it was also so just like, ah, beautiful and wonderful to read that. And of course there was lots more that we went through during that time. Do you, do you remember that, that, like that email that you sent me that at that point? 

Natasha: Yeah, I, it's actually like I can, I can picture I was like laying in bed.

Natasha: I think both of them were beside me on either side, like snoozing. And I was just going through the workbook being like, Oh my God, she wrote this for me. Like, this is the most perfect content ever. And it was I just remember it was like so thoughtfully designed, like the questions were so thought provoking.

Natasha: I was like, this is going to get me to think this [00:17:00] through. This is exactly what I need. It's not pushy. It's not any one way or the other. It's like, let's just explore what's going on at first before, you know, and just myself sitting there and like, You know, texting it out basically into the answers of this workbook.

Natasha: I was like, just getting insight after insight and clarity after clarity that I just didn't have time to figure out on my own. I didn't have, you know, sort of like, when on earth am I going to, you know, sit down and be like, it's like a therapy session in my phone. 

Jenna: Yeah, because when do you, yeah, therapy session on your phone.

Jenna: I love that. And it's like time is one thing, but also like where do you even start? Like what, you don't know what questions to ask yourself, right? You need somebody who's kind of walked that path before to be like, all right, let's start here. We're going to move slowly through this. And yeah. And I love Answers that you were finding within yourself, like, you know, there was that support, but I could watch it happening in you through you with [00:18:00] you, like week after week, module after module that you were finding those answers.

Jenna: And I, the support I provided was really little, like little tweaks along the way. I felt like it wasn't, you know, these big, big things. So yeah, so great. As you, that was like the initial support that kind of like got you started. And that first module is. Truthfully quite simple, and it just starts to explore the relationship dynamics that are happening.

Jenna: It doesn't even get into all the science of the whys or boundaries or what to do about things. It's just like, hey, take a moment and let's break down this cycle that's happening and just label it. Like, let's just label the pieces right now. Yeah, so, as, 

Natasha: yeah, sorry. To do that, I just, I can't remember just being like, oh my goodness, like this is all right in front of my face, but you just don't think about things in such a, I don't know, structured way in general, right?

Natasha: Like I was just. I was, I was also, my coping at that point was just like, try to go somewhere else in my [00:19:00] mind. So like, I wasn't trying to figure out what was going on. I was just kind of like, coping, like, just get me out of here. Get me out of this uncomfortable moment. And I hated that too, because I was like, I've worked so hard to get to this tandem point, and now all I'm trying to do is not experience it.

Natasha: Like, that's so unfortunate. Like, the things that I had gone through to get there were also part of it. It's like I invested in this. This was so meaningful and so important to me. And now I'm not even getting to experience it at all. 

Jenna: Right. Absolutely. And even to have taken it away from all of you or both, right?

Jenna: Like it would have felt like all that work. And then you're like, kind of like spoiling it. Like at the end, it feels like it's like all for nothing and that's so hard. I think it also makes sense that like, cause that reflection part is. reintegrating your brain. It's instead of just being in that emotional and like fight or flight kind of response where you're, you're, you're cognitive thinking [00:20:00] brain is not online anymore when you're in that and the dissociating, like not talking about it necessarily in a clinical sense, but that kind of going somewhere else in your brain, just trying to distract yourself, trying to push through it, which honestly, if you Google nursing aversion, Most of the advice on the internet is like, distract yourself.

Natasha (2): The 

Jenna: nursing aversion. And I it's, you know, we need, we do what we need to do. And I'm not saying that that's bad or wrong, but it's not giving you the end goal that you wanted, which was to feel connected with your kids and to create that home life that all of you Like deserve. So that reflective process is actually bringing that cognitive kind of brain back online and then supporting you to connect it with those emotional pieces.

Jenna: So it's actually reintegrating your brain, which is a beautiful, amazing thing. 

Natasha: Yeah. 

Jenna: So sometimes people feel, and I know I do this sometimes too, where it's like the action steps, like you're learning something and you're like, I don't want to do that. There's so much benefit. [00:21:00] So much better. So then moving through.

Jenna: That didn't solve all your problems, right? Like just labeling things didn't, didn't make it all go, disappear and go away. So I know that you still continue, continued with some struggles. So do you remember what those challenges were? Like, as you kind of are working through the rest of the course and.

Natasha: Yeah, I think I mean, and it's foggy because let's be honest, I was early postpartum and but if I'm remembering it correctly, I feel like, so basically I had a newborn, my son turned three. three weeks before. So he was a fresh three. And I don't like, I don't, I don't use three major or like those types of, you know, I don't want to like label, but there are certain things that happen at three.

Natasha: And so I wasn't sure, is this a three year old thing? Is this a new sibling thing? You know, what's happening? But we were having these kind of issues. My son wasn't eating for one, for like, weeks. We [00:22:00] would just, he'd get one bite of food. We were, we were starting to become those parents who are like, Take three more bites, and then you can, like, you know, and like, So it was getting icky around the table, but he was wanting to just get all of his nutrients from breastfeeding, which was impossible given my situation and how I was feeling during.

Natasha: So it was, we were like so stuck in this. And then when I would put a limit or, you know, say, okay, we have to stop, or I would say no, which was kind of new for him, he would have these big feelings, but he couldn't, I couldn't soothe him. So my husband had to step in. And so then there was a new dynamic.

Natasha: Coming into play there, where my husband was doing all the most wonderful things, bringing him time in, you know, let's talk about it. I know, he would, he would role play this little angry person. He would say, I'm an angry little person too, what are we mad at? And then they would both be, he would, he would like let him express his [00:23:00] anger and they would talk about their anger and he would teach him breathing and he was doing all these amazing things.

Natasha: Oh my goodness. But anyway. Just like such huge emotions coming out of this little guy. It's just so, so intense. And I was, you know, in the other room with My daughter, like just crying, like just feeling so bad, making him feel this way. And like, you know that I'm not the one in there, even though I was like, also like blown away with my husband.

Natasha: Yeah. I mean, that is amazing. Incredible stuff without anything like that. It's just like, it's intuitive. Parenting coming in. 

Jenna: Yeah. 

Natasha: But yeah, 

Jenna: often when we've done kind of our own work or we're, I mean, we can think about it in a, in a few different lenses, but it is intuitive, like to be there, to emotionally support somebody, our baseline as human beings is connection.

Jenna: Like that's, and so when we're in that connective place and all of our parts of our brain are talking to each other in a healthy way, you know, it, we are able to offer people. What we would want to [00:24:00] have and what supports us and we're able to see people for who they are, our children included, and, you know, offer them that.

Jenna: And it also makes sense. So that's amazing that your husband was able to be there and do that. Also makes sense that you were struggling with that. 

Natasha (2): Yeah. 

Jenna: And do you, can you tell me a little bit more how about that was for you when he would have those big feelings? 

Natasha: Well, I mean, I, I felt very bad. The, the situation was so that the aversion for me was coming out in like almost just this like anger, this frustration, like this feeling of just wanting to like, just push him away from me physically.

Natasha: It was like and, and I wouldn't, but I would like be counting down like, like, like my, my hands were almost making fists. Like I was just like frustrated irritated. And so there would be these moments of like, like, okay, we, like, we have to stop now and [00:25:00] he wouldn't want to stop. And if you do the latch off, but he, he would like to still try.

Natasha: And then I'd be like, my son, we have like, it's, we have to stop. And because I would just be so like at the limit, 

Jenna: very limited. Not to like interrupt, but that is so interesting to me that when it was a sensitivity issue and there wasn't this emotional piece for you, that the latch offs worked and they worked great.

Jenna: And then as soon as there's emotional piece that's there, those latch offs don't work anymore. And that's really interesting. I say all the time that the tools are just the tools and you can't, they work for some people and they don't for other people. And often there's this emotional piece and you can use any tool when the emotions are like.

Jenna: There and you're working through that, then the tool just becomes what works in that moment. But that is that's so fascinating to me. 

Natasha: And, and one of the things that I was helped to realize by going through the content in the program is that Like, [00:26:00] like he was using breastfeeding to soothe him, like, so, I mean, I knew that I already knew that because he would tell me like, I need some milk to feel better.

Natasha: Like that was one of his types of milk. There was milk, milk in bed when he was tired and he needed it to sleep or milk to feel better when he was sad or he needed soothing. And so of course, when I'm all agitated and irritated, he's like, well, what's going on on some level, he's needing more comfort. And he, you know, doesn't want to let go of his comfort.

Natasha: And then I'm now telling him he must let go of it when he needs it. And so of course he's having these big reactions, but then the big reactions are too much for me. Cause I'm already fried and at the limit. So that's sort of like cycle of. The links between everything. It was like, Oh, of course. Like, it's not just me.

Natasha: Who's having these big emotions, which is all you can see when you're in your own big emotions. He's also having some big emotions. He's having confusion. Like why is my mom all of a sudden, instead of this comfy, cozy, soft, loving kind of like presence that she's always [00:27:00] been, she's all weird. Like their energy is different.

Natasha: Like her way of even being with me is different. I need more milk to feel better. And she's not giving it to me. Like, I just think like, so anyway. 

Jenna: Well, and yeah, when you were, when you used the latch off during pregnancy, that was connecting. It was a fun game for the two of you to, to do right. Like it was, you enjoyed it.

Jenna: Even the way you talked about it. It was like, yeah, it's so cute. And of course I loved it when he hopped off that first and you arguably were somewhat dysregulated because you were feeling that pain, but you were still regulating and you were still. Able to stay in that connected place. And then you can see that difference that when you're using it to separate because it was too much, 

Natasha (2): you 

Jenna: were no longer able to stay in a connected place and he picked up on that.

Jenna: Right. And I mean, there's science behind that. It's things that go into in the course, but that makes sense and totally makes sense. I also recall that a frustration that came up for [00:28:00] you during that time, which comes up for so many parents was that. If you didn't, like, support or change the way that he was reacting in those moments, that you were somehow feeding this monster, that you were somehow making it worse.

Jenna: So if, if you're not teaching him, air quotes, the right way to handle your know, that you're you know, going to make it worse the next time, and then possibly even have this adult who is, You know, a bad human being, 

Natasha: yeah, who doesn't understand consent, who doesn't understand the word no, no, who, yes, yes, all the stories that are out.

Natasha: Oh my gosh. Well, and they, there's a lot in like, kind of, you know, I don't know what kind of parenting types of, I don't know what, what mainstream or whatever, where people like you can't spoil them by just like giving in when they are [00:29:00] demanding something or, you know, you need to teach them that there's like a right and a wrong way to ask for things and he can't just be, you know, coming and ripping at your shirt and, and demanding access to your body.

Natasha: And, you know, there, there were so many little narratives all worked in that were like, once I've said, no, I need to stay on my no, no matter what. Even if he's losing his mind, melting down, screaming, you know, because then I'm just going to, you know, reward that, you know, monstrous behavior. And then the next time he'll just know he needs to just scream hard and demand and kick and he'll get what he wants.

Natasha: So I can't, I would feel so trapped. Exactly. Because that's so intense. 

Jenna: Like, that's a, like, that's a scary consequence for you. So now all you're doing is ramping up your stress even more. Like you were already stressed and now it's just like building, building, building. And that spiral is just [00:30:00] like, like spiraling out of control.

Jenna: Yes. So how, like, what were some things that supported you through that 

Natasha: piece? Oh, man. So when my husband was home, and these things would happen, he was very supportive in that he also you know, it's funny, I'm saying he's very supportive. He absolutely was doing everything that a human could do to be helpful, but I think he was also feeling a lot of strong emotions, because he also really wants our son to raise.

Natasha: Well, and to know what no means and to not be, you know, like physically kind of attacking at a woman who's saying no to him, right? Like there, there's triggers there for him as a man who's good son, 

Jenna: especially in the culture we're in right now. Like that's like, it's very of the moment, right? Like to feel that that is.

Jenna: So like the, the heaviness around that topic feels [00:31:00] so intense. 

Natasha: So he would, he would step in very big, like he would come in like, okay my son, and he'd scoop him up and bring him to another room and like have a conversation. And then he was not in a place to have a conversation, but he was like, this needs, I can't just let this happen.

Natasha: I have to do something. You know, you can't do that when mommy says no, like da, da, da, da. And it was, it was like, our whole family was stuck in this like cyclone and like my poor little baby was just there like, what's going on, what's happening to everybody? So it was, you know, so that was, He was supportive as can be, but, but we were all stuck.

Natasha: Obviously the, really the only place that there is to talk about these things, the only place that I had was your program, you know, going to the, the calls or doing the workbooks, turning to you. No one else I know was tandem feeding. No one else, literally in any of my, [00:32:00] I've never just come across a person, other than in your groups, who was feeding as long as I have.

Natasha: And who tried tandem feeding. So it was like, no one had anything to relate. Like if I would try and talk to a friend, they'd be like, Oh, sounds hard. Do you think it's time to wean? Like, that was pretty much all anybody has. Seems like things are pretty tough. Like just giving me a bit of grace and compassion or, you know, Oh, you know, I'm, I'm that like, you're, you're a hero or like, you're doing such great things.

Natasha: But like no one, there was not really like lovely care, but just no relevant, like. 

Jenna: It's a hard place to be as the friend too. And even as a coach, like I, I remember that. And I mean, I'm not singling you out as like, Oh, this was a really hard moment. Like you're the hardest client. That's not it at all.

Jenna: These moments come up where I remember that and like meeting. Wanting to be so intentional in meeting you with compassion because that is so scary and it is so [00:33:00] big. Do you remember some of the mindset shifts that happened for you around that, that kind of got you out of that cyclone? 

Natasha: I, so, Honestly, this is one of those ones where I'm like, hmm, there was something.

Natasha: I know there was something. Yeah, I remember some of it, so I can share some with people. I know that something got us out because we are no longer in it and we haven't been in it in a very long time. I don't remember. We did the thing that unglued my brain, I think. I don't 

Jenna: remember. I remember very compassionately, because that's the piece that was kind of missing for you guys.

Jenna: And even as you explain that, like not all together, but in that cyclone, the safety was gone. It felt like the end of the world as you're describing it. Like, to Raise a child, a son, who doesn't understand consent, and who [00:34:00] is like ripping off a woman's clothing, as you're describing it, the words that you're using, is scary.

Jenna: And in the world we're in, I mean, I can hardly imagine something that would be, you know, worse. Like that feels very intense and very heavy. So the safety was gone. So when the safety is gone, you're not able to connect with another human being. 

Natasha (2): And 

Jenna: the kind of ironic piece is that ripping at somebody's clothes, screaming, not being able to tolerate somebody having a boundary are all all occur as a stress response, especially for a three year old.

Jenna: That's not something that is consciously being done. He's not saying my mom said no, but I, I demand and have a right to her body or access to her body. All he's doing in that moment is trying to find safety and trying to find security and connection. So what I remember [00:35:00] supporting you with was, Shifting that mindset instead of an intentional behavior that needs to be addressed.

Jenna: This is, he is struggling. He is having a really big feeling because in that moment it was all about you. And then it was all about your husband, right? I need to change and stop this behavior because of all these bad things. That's how I'll feel safe. Yeah. But if you can shift that to realize, okay, my son is having a hard time right now.

Jenna: Yes. Then you can meet him there. And The truth that all humans do well when they feel safe and secure and when they have the supports that they need. 

Natasha (2): Yes. 

Jenna: Can, can you know, carry you through, right? 

Natasha (2): So I 

Jenna: remember offering that as like, okay, here's the shift. Is that he's not doing this because he's learned that this is the thing that he should do.

Jenna: He's You don't kick and punch because you've learned [00:36:00] that that's how you're going to get your way. You kick and punch because you're scared and you're fighting for something, right? Like if we hit a dog and that dog bites us, right? We don't think that dog learned to bite from its mother. That dog watched other dogs biting.

Jenna: No, we think of course the dog bit, right? 

Natasha: Right. Yeah. So 

Jenna: that shifts. And then the reality too, that yes, teaching consent is also super duper important. And when he's in that state, it's not cognitive learning that's happening. He's not able to learn a lesson. All he's learning is. This is scary and intense.

Jenna: And when I have really big feelings, it makes really big feelings in other people and I need to shut them down. Like, that's what you start to learn. And 

Natasha (2): that's 

Jenna: big, right? 

Natasha (2): So 

Jenna: yeah, as I'm sharing what I re that's what I recall offering you when you were in, in that kind of cyclone, is that bringing back that 

Natasha: And that took the pressure off, like, like all the pressure.

Natasha: And I think that increased my [00:37:00] sense of safety and comfort too, right? Because if I, it was my panic of like, Oh my gosh, this is the moment that I must teach him that these things are right and wrong and blah, blah, blah. And being able to just kind of go like, Oh, he's just, he's not even like, he's just having a complete emotional meltdown.

Natasha: And this is not. a behavior that needs to, like, be addressed right now as an emotion, then I can, like, more calmly help him to cope with what's happening instead of having a reaction that is, like, big in me that just intensifies the whole situation. 

Jenna: And that compassion is Like that compassion for yourself, right?

Jenna: Oh, it makes sense that I'm feeling this way. Of course I'm feeling this way. This is hard. This is intense. I'm depleted and it's scary. 

Natasha (2): And then as 

Jenna: you can say, okay, maybe it's not all of that. Like, it makes sense. And the reality is, is that he's a three year old and his You know, how he's going to behave as an adult is not written in stone.

Jenna: And we have a lot of [00:38:00] years left to work through whatever that is. Right. We can support it through that. Then you can turn around and offer him that compassion too, right? Which is exactly, he needs that safety to come out. He needs that compassion. He needs to say like, it's really hard that mom's having. A hard time right now.

Jenna: And that's scary and it's big and it's intense. Makes sense that you're feeling this way. And the reality is, is that we can't kick and we can't scream just when that's happening and in mommy's face or whatever, like here's some ways, not that you can't scream. Of course, kicking and screaming happens, but it's not safe to do that to other people's bodies right now.

Jenna: So we're going to support you with that piece too. And then you can. Move through that. I remember shortly after that talking with you, and the way it felt so big, that cyclone was so huge, and then the way you were talking about it, like, oh yeah, that's a silly thing, that thing where I believed that, oh man, you were like, you were so chill about it, Okay.

Natasha: Okay. Oh yeah. This is probably why it's like one of those like lost [00:39:00] details is because like as soon as it was, as soon as it was like not this anymore and it like was this, it was like, oh, nothing. Like, it's just, it's great. For people 

Jenna: listening, that was big hands to little hands. Not big, not really big anymore.

Jenna: It was little. It was like this tiny 

Natasha: thing. Just throw it away. It's no longer relevant. And like, and it stopped. That's the other thing. It's not like I had to then. Hope with multiple more of these experiences. It's almost like as soon as I was seeing it differently, it just stopped happening. So then I was like, well, definitely this was a me thing.

Natasha: Like definitely this was like something that was happening within me that was contributing to this whole big cycle. To such a degree that it stopped happening. And that's another thing that was so crazy because I had at the same time as finding you, I'd also found this thing that was like about, I can't remember parenting a child of like a three year old through whatever.

Natasha: So I was also following that content and that content was all very like. Behavior based and like focused on the child and like all of these things. And, and none of that was helping me at all. [00:40:00] And it was like, Oh, this isn't like a hymn thing. Like, you know, the other thing was assuming this is like what a three year old does and here's what you need to do to like help with that.

Natasha: And I was like, okay, but this, none of that stuff was working. But as soon as I would have these shifts inside of me, it was like magic. Where these big problems were all of a sudden just like, Not happening anymore. So 

Jenna: I got goosebumps. I know. I, and I mean, it's profound for you to share that. Cause I can share those things like in content, like, Hey, oftentimes when you do the shift inside, it kind of resolves, but to hear it from somebody who's like another person who's lived it, not just me.

Jenna: I'm, I love, I love hearing that. That's amazing. So Where are you now? A year, kind of, ish later through that process, how, how are things for you? 

Natasha: So, things are much better than they were, definitely, at that time. We, I think where I left [00:41:00] off with you, I had started to consider, like, sort of a gradual, gentle, weaning direction, not necessarily a plan where we were going to wean, but just sort of somehow like a reduction or I can't remember exactly.

Natasha: I, I fell off because it became less urgent because things were getting better. It's kind of what happened. And then I was like, okay, I think like things are okay. And so I'm just going to sort of meander towards a weenie sort of experience with less. But not in any kind of pressured sense and, and in a way that's collaborative.

Natasha: I think that was what was really important that I took away from our last thing. It was like, we can collaborate, we can work together. He was, you know, a very, at the time we were around three and a bit, but like such a like little thinker who loved to solve problems. And so like, I think I just talked to him about it and was like, you know it's ouchie is the way I left it.

Natasha: I never switched it from ouchie because I didn't really want to explain to him, like, it makes mommy really [00:42:00] angry when I'm feeding you because that just doesn't make sense. Right? Right. So I stuck with ouchie as the term for what was happening for me. And I was like, ouchie when we do it. And I think I maybe sort of like blamed it on like, His teeth and his big boy mouth kind of scenario because like, why isn't it ouchy when the baby does, you know?

Natasha: So we had a conversation about that and it made sense of it for him that way. It makes some sense of it, exactly. And not like in a blaming way, but you're growing and you're bigger. And there's something about your mouth that makes it more ouchy for mommy. Compared to when it's a little baby with no teeth and she was such a sweetheart didn't didn't get a single tooth for so long like just a little gums like 

Jenna: gummy mouth.

Natasha: Yeah, she still only has like four teeth right now. A whole year old so anyways. He and I sat down and came up with a plan and we wrote it on his little easel and it was like, you know, we're going to have some morning milk, we're going to have milk at lunch, we're going to have some right before supper in that sort of like witching hour that like [00:43:00] a snack and so we'd have milk and snack.

Natasha: And then bedtime milk. And that was like our, our plan. And we wrote it down. And so then he would like look at the number and he would go and look at the like clock and he'd be like, is it time for us to have our milk yet? Or he'd be like, Oh, it's lunchtime, mommy. It's time for our milk. So it was, it felt more manageable for me.

Natasha: And it felt like something that he could sort of rely on these kinds of touch points in the day, rather than like, a thing where he's asking for it and sometimes I'm saying yes, sometimes I'm saying no, and it feels random and like makes him more needy. It was like, you know, exactly when it's gonna be at that time.

Natasha: So that really worked for us and we still stick to that kind of a Rhythm. 

Jenna: a 

Natasha: routine. And And he, and it works. He's, he's used to it. He understands it. And he understands why My daughter gets the habit whenever in sort of a, like, well, when you were that size, that's what you did. And so it makes sense to him.

Natasha: Things [00:44:00] are still going very smooth as they always were with my baby and the feeding. It's, it's all still in that like easy phase. People are starting to say to me when they see me feeding her like, Oh, you're still breastfeeding. And I'm like, not only am I still breastfeeding my one year old. So, you know, things are going well there.

Natasha: My son just started JK. And it's been great. Like that was another kind of like, Oh, I can help him through that kind of thing. Like, so when we reunite at the end of the day, we have. Our little snuggle and and have some milk together and it's, it's reconnecting and it helps them through what's been a tough transition for them so far.

Natasha: And so things, yeah, things are good. It's, there still is like that aversion is still there and has not, sadly. Gone away. So every feed there is still this kind of like that I've gotten more and more used to how that feels. And, and I'm not as [00:45:00] like reactive to it. And he understands that mommy's going to do the countdown.

Natasha: The countdown has become a fun game again. He listens to it. He either stops right as soon as I say, Oh, it's starting to get ouchy, he'll sometimes just stop right then. Or sometimes he'll take the full. count and latch off right at the end. But that's again, like a comfortable thing. That's not triggering for 

Jenna: me.

Jenna: And that's, that's brilliant because I experienced that too, where nursing aversion wasn't just like poof gone. Eventually I did actually move fully out of it. And then the weird thing is, is that it kind of came back from my son when I was just breastfeeding my son right at the end. He's Pretty much weaned now, which is just wild.

Jenna: But I would experience it a little bit too. And I, I think that, you know, I shared about this recently on the podcast. We all go through life and there's stressors that come up. And I often talk about aversion. I do believe that there can be medical reasons for aversion and those kinds of pieces as well.

Jenna: And [00:46:00] sometimes there can be depression and underlying mental health conditions and those things. And a lot of times it's a stress response from our body, right? Like it's that flashing light on the dashboard. And. We can still have stressors that are coming in, but what you're explaining, the difference between that cyclone and then now is that you're still maintaining like connection to yourself, you're still maintaining connection to your son through it.

Jenna: And that's a different experience where you're using it as a tool that's supporting your needs as opposed to it being this thing that's happening to you and you, it's depleting your, your needs and your capacity through the process. 

Natasha (2): That is so true. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jenna: And I think that's really, really beautiful and special.

Jenna: And sometimes I do support people where their version's gone and it's pretty cool. And sometimes there's times where that version goes or comes back or sticks around and [00:47:00] it's not always about like it disappearing or making it go away, but exactly what you're talking about. Like, what do you need and what does he need and how, how is that going to work for both of you?

Jenna: Yeah. You can fully wean. Yeah, you can put some boundaries up. Like, you can still maintain it as a tool. And exactly what you've said, you're like so grateful that you still have it so that you can support him through this new transition of starting school and that it's been an important tool for you.

Jenna: Especially while you're still navigating having a one year old. Like, you still have a baby. Yeah. Life with a baby too. 

Natasha: Yeah, exactly. 

Jenna: Yeah. 

Natasha: I think that's so, I love the way that you put that about sort of versus it happening to you, this thing happening to you. And I think that that was a big part of it is that I felt so trapped at the beginning before we started to work through it.

Natasha: So trapped in continuing. And it was like, I'm not even making a choice with what I'm doing with my body, which is also a very triggering thing. I'm not making a choice. [00:48:00] This thing is happening to my body. Triggering for so many reasons. 

Jenna: That's interesting that you were thinking that because it shows that that.

Jenna: Concern about consent wasn't even actually about consent. It was actually about you. It's bigger. 

Natasha: Yes. A hundred percent. 

Jenna: Like that just, yeah, you didn't feel like you had control over your body. Not so much. Yeah. Yeah. 

Natasha: And I mean, that was like, I, I've had a, you know, trauma history in regards to, you know, bad men.

Natasha: And then I've also got. Birth trauma with him. Yeah. Where things absolute that to my body that I did not want done. You know, an app episiotomy with no medication and these kinds of like awful things where you're like, I said no, I didn't want that, and then this thing had to happen and how awful that is.

Natasha: And so I've, I've got pa past traumas that were definitely being triggered by my poor little guy [00:49:00] who just really wants comfort. Like, so it, it was this horrible, I was so. Stuck. And it was like, I was stuck in my own head, in my own web that then I was able to like pull apart and understand and like reorganize and then make a choice, which I think is a significant part of why it worked out in the end.

Natasha: Like why we were able to continue is that I felt I could make a choice after going through and understanding everything. It was like, I could choose to wean. I could choose not to wean. I could choose to continue in a different way. And so I chose to continue in a different way, and it was huge, life alteringly, you know, you know, it just, it was awesome, it made it possible for me to continue something that was really valuable to me.

Jenna: Oh, I love that so much, and I think that it is really cool how, It wasn't about your son because [00:50:00] that's where we can often and extra feel trapped because we can't change somebody else's behavior. We can't stop somebody from doing something. We can't be inside their head. You can't stop them from wanting something.

Natasha (2): And when 

Jenna: you carry that belief that I am trapped and I can't nothing like I, I'm a victim or I'm and I know that that word can be triggering even for people, but that's what it feels like. It feels like I don't, you don't have a choice. I'm trapped. I'm being held hostage. But when When you realize you can't change somebody else's behavior, that feels even more so.

Jenna: But you were able to shift that and to no longer feel like that and nothing had to necessarily change on the outside. 

Natasha: Yeah. 

Jenna: You know? 

Natasha: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Pretty magical, the stuff that you're doing. 

Jenna: Thank you. So as we're wrapping up, is there anything that you would tell to a mama who's maybe where you were at that, you know, one month postpartum with [00:51:00] My daughter Mark.

Jenna: Oh my goodness. 

Natasha: Oh, find Jenna. Find Jenna. That's exactly what I would tell them. I would send them to your content. Oh my gosh. Yes. It's yeah, it's very, it's tough to do these kinds of things without support. I think it is so important. For new moms especially and moms who are newly moms again, you know, like, like we're going through so much, and it can be very hard to find time for yourself and prioritize yourself, but.

Natasha: It is, you're what everything is hinging on. So you must, you must do what you need to do for yourself in order to function and care for all the things that you need to care for. And, and everything rests on that. Everything hinges on that. So prioritize. Yourself and your care and, [00:52:00] and don't just shove it to one side and try to push through like find your support and take it because you deserve it.

Jenna: I love that. You do deserve it. Everyone listening, you deserve it. 

Natasha (2): Well, 

Jenna: thank you so much for being on the podcast and talking to me today, Natasha. I know that this is going to resonate with so many. So in that way too, you've offered that support to people as well. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing.

Natasha: Thank you so much. This has been awesome. I'm so, so glad that you invited me on and I've loved talking with you again and seeing you again. 

Jenna: Great. Thanks so much.